I'm really not a fan of the logic that because there are worse things elsewhere, that people shouldn't protest something that is genuinely shitty. Yes, I would love to see actions happen against the traditional car companies too. But should be an *and* not an *or*.
Some reasons to fight Tesla's expansion are broad, and not Tesla-specific. For example, we need to be moving away from car infrastructure in general and putting more focus on public transit, biking and walking. The production of electric vehicles uses up resources like lithium, which are extracted in ways that are absolutely horrific for the people who do the work, while also badly damaging those environments. This extraction and destruction is worth fighting against. Electric vehicles are certainly *part* of how we navigate the climate crisis, but the way they're being made now is a fucking problem. And it also does not make sense to continue the destructive pattern of individualized transport in big, heavy, dangerous vehicles.
To get to the specifics though, about why Tesla, why this factory, why now... There is an immediate and urgent threat to the water supply and to the forest. At the same time that there's talk of rationing water for personal use, Tesla is trying to greatly expand its water-use. If Musk and Tesla's past behavior is any indication of future plans, they will do this regardless of whatever rules (if any) exist for them. If the forest is lost, and the water use of Tesla is expanded, it will be very hard or impossible to reverse the damage.
So yeah... fuck every car factory and company in Germany. None of them are behaving correctly given our current context, and all of them are a legitimate target of rage. But we have one in particular, very close by, that is about to cause significant and irreversible damage. I support the forest occupiers.
If you'd rather see action against the other car companies, go right ahead! Use your platform to rip them apart. But stop shitting on people who you say you're "sympathetic" to. You can help, or you can get out of the way.
I agree with your meta point on pushing back on the article. But one of your subpoints: last I knew the science was still out on whether electric was better than IC for the ecosystem. Sure, more damage is done up front in other people's countries. But a huge amount of environmental toxicity for anyone breathing the air or drinking the water where there are cars actually derives from the microparticles and plastics that are released from the tires and brake pads.
yes! I considered including this point, but my comment was already getting *long*, so I simplified.
Giant batteries make the cars heavier, and heavier cars require more power from those batteries to drive. More weight increases the pollution from ties and brakes, since more friction is needed to slow that mass and there's more friction of the tires on the road as they drive. Heavier cars are much deadlier when they hit people. Heavier cars cumulatively cause more wear on the roads, meaning that they need more maintenance, and more frequent replacement.
What seems clear to me, given my understanding of the science, is this:
- we need fewer cars of all types
- the individual transport vehicles that remain need to be as small and light as possible, and electric or human powered. Electric-assisted cargo bikes, for example, can fill in for many of the purposes that people are currently so adamant that cars/vans/trucks are "necessary" for
- more public transit
- less sprawl and keeping housing in cities permanently affordable, so people can rely on public transit, bikes, and walking
or to try to sum it all up: we need to be smarter and more egalitarian about how we use limited resources, land, and carbon budget. As we do so, justice, human rights, and labor rights need to be top factors in the "how" of all this.
You know people are entitled to their opinion and their preferences, right? I want freedom to choose whatever ride I want. This mindset is why Europe in its current form is destined to fail, and moreover, the reason why it has stagnated with no improvement in sight.
a bit of a non sequitur to get all defensive about a random person on the internet (me) infringing on your "freedoms", when my comment was about how it's justified to protest *companies* doing harmful things like stealing our drinking water, don't you think?
What are you talking about? The EU is at least 20% of the world's GDP with less than 6% of its people. The EU's share of the GPD rivals (and sometimes exceeds e.g. for 2007 and a few years after) that of the US and China. And have you noticed that people live longer here than in the US while spending a lot less on healthcare? (I'm going to guess the US is your comparator) https://joanna-bryson.blogspot.com/2023/10/how-decline-in-american-life.html
I've seen a hundred demonstrations in Germany and a hundred boycotts and it's always more popular and easier to protest anything that is American. Anti-Americanism and anti-Israeli-ism are the last two socially permissible forms of nationalism.
hi Maurice, I'm sorry for phrasing my previous comment rather rudely. I didn't mean to upset you, I just found the juxtaposition funny.
won't you agree that your opening paragraph is mostly whataboutism, and not sincerely addressing the issue of placing a water-intensive industry in a water-deprived area? and it's not even that strong: why don't they protest VW - they did during dieselgate, and they would but they live in BE/BB and VW doesn't have a factory drying up their region. why don't they protest the government - they do (e.g. for a speed limit on the autobahn), but they won't support subsidies for electric cars (instead they'd support the ones for public transport).
and i'm not sure that your assessment above is accurate or sincere either - storming the factory did get support for the cause (i saw it celebrated on twitter and reddit by people who are also concerned with the use of public money for expensive personal cars instead of public infrastructure).
but i'm not sure that the premise is correct either - the purpose of storming the factory is not necessarily meant to get support for the cause (that was done through media, peaceful protests etc.), but rather to disrupt production and to signal to investors and the government that the factory expansion is unacceptable, after the peaceful methods were ignored
No worries. I don't see the BB government or Tesla giving an inch. Or if they get sick of protests then they'll just build a factory in Poland or wherever else with its own environmental issues. I think images of activists storming the factory alienates most people - who don't spend much time on Reddit or Twitter. Campaigning for resources being put into public transport and bike lanes etc makes a lot of sense. Infrastructure does eventually change habits. I lived in Denmark for a while. A lot of people bike there becaues the bike paths are exceptionally good. In Autoland Deutschland, anything that disrupts the car industry and its profits and jobs is seen as a menace.
On the topic of the Tesla protests:
I'm really not a fan of the logic that because there are worse things elsewhere, that people shouldn't protest something that is genuinely shitty. Yes, I would love to see actions happen against the traditional car companies too. But should be an *and* not an *or*.
Some reasons to fight Tesla's expansion are broad, and not Tesla-specific. For example, we need to be moving away from car infrastructure in general and putting more focus on public transit, biking and walking. The production of electric vehicles uses up resources like lithium, which are extracted in ways that are absolutely horrific for the people who do the work, while also badly damaging those environments. This extraction and destruction is worth fighting against. Electric vehicles are certainly *part* of how we navigate the climate crisis, but the way they're being made now is a fucking problem. And it also does not make sense to continue the destructive pattern of individualized transport in big, heavy, dangerous vehicles.
To get to the specifics though, about why Tesla, why this factory, why now... There is an immediate and urgent threat to the water supply and to the forest. At the same time that there's talk of rationing water for personal use, Tesla is trying to greatly expand its water-use. If Musk and Tesla's past behavior is any indication of future plans, they will do this regardless of whatever rules (if any) exist for them. If the forest is lost, and the water use of Tesla is expanded, it will be very hard or impossible to reverse the damage.
So yeah... fuck every car factory and company in Germany. None of them are behaving correctly given our current context, and all of them are a legitimate target of rage. But we have one in particular, very close by, that is about to cause significant and irreversible damage. I support the forest occupiers.
If you'd rather see action against the other car companies, go right ahead! Use your platform to rip them apart. But stop shitting on people who you say you're "sympathetic" to. You can help, or you can get out of the way.
I agree with your meta point on pushing back on the article. But one of your subpoints: last I knew the science was still out on whether electric was better than IC for the ecosystem. Sure, more damage is done up front in other people's countries. But a huge amount of environmental toxicity for anyone breathing the air or drinking the water where there are cars actually derives from the microparticles and plastics that are released from the tires and brake pads.
Agree, cars suck.
yes! I considered including this point, but my comment was already getting *long*, so I simplified.
Giant batteries make the cars heavier, and heavier cars require more power from those batteries to drive. More weight increases the pollution from ties and brakes, since more friction is needed to slow that mass and there's more friction of the tires on the road as they drive. Heavier cars are much deadlier when they hit people. Heavier cars cumulatively cause more wear on the roads, meaning that they need more maintenance, and more frequent replacement.
What seems clear to me, given my understanding of the science, is this:
- we need fewer cars of all types
- the individual transport vehicles that remain need to be as small and light as possible, and electric or human powered. Electric-assisted cargo bikes, for example, can fill in for many of the purposes that people are currently so adamant that cars/vans/trucks are "necessary" for
- more public transit
- less sprawl and keeping housing in cities permanently affordable, so people can rely on public transit, bikes, and walking
or to try to sum it all up: we need to be smarter and more egalitarian about how we use limited resources, land, and carbon budget. As we do so, justice, human rights, and labor rights need to be top factors in the "how" of all this.
You know people are entitled to their opinion and their preferences, right? I want freedom to choose whatever ride I want. This mindset is why Europe in its current form is destined to fail, and moreover, the reason why it has stagnated with no improvement in sight.
a bit of a non sequitur to get all defensive about a random person on the internet (me) infringing on your "freedoms", when my comment was about how it's justified to protest *companies* doing harmful things like stealing our drinking water, don't you think?
What are you talking about? The EU is at least 20% of the world's GDP with less than 6% of its people. The EU's share of the GPD rivals (and sometimes exceeds e.g. for 2007 and a few years after) that of the US and China. And have you noticed that people live longer here than in the US while spending a lot less on healthcare? (I'm going to guess the US is your comparator) https://joanna-bryson.blogspot.com/2023/10/how-decline-in-american-life.html
That guy wondering whether it’s necessary to shower every day is not riding the U8 every day to work, clearly.
No, he literally is! 😂
🫢
Turf coming to Mauerpark from Bavaria? Hostile takeover that will end in Markus Söder claiming the plot;-))
I've seen a hundred demonstrations in Germany and a hundred boycotts and it's always more popular and easier to protest anything that is American. Anti-Americanism and anti-Israeli-ism are the last two socially permissible forms of nationalism.
Being libertarian and conservative is considered to be fascism these days 😄
The world has taken a bizarre and unpredictable turn
Storming the factory isn't going to get you any support for your cause.
hi Maurice, I'm sorry for phrasing my previous comment rather rudely. I didn't mean to upset you, I just found the juxtaposition funny.
won't you agree that your opening paragraph is mostly whataboutism, and not sincerely addressing the issue of placing a water-intensive industry in a water-deprived area? and it's not even that strong: why don't they protest VW - they did during dieselgate, and they would but they live in BE/BB and VW doesn't have a factory drying up their region. why don't they protest the government - they do (e.g. for a speed limit on the autobahn), but they won't support subsidies for electric cars (instead they'd support the ones for public transport).
and i'm not sure that your assessment above is accurate or sincere either - storming the factory did get support for the cause (i saw it celebrated on twitter and reddit by people who are also concerned with the use of public money for expensive personal cars instead of public infrastructure).
but i'm not sure that the premise is correct either - the purpose of storming the factory is not necessarily meant to get support for the cause (that was done through media, peaceful protests etc.), but rather to disrupt production and to signal to investors and the government that the factory expansion is unacceptable, after the peaceful methods were ignored
No worries. I don't see the BB government or Tesla giving an inch. Or if they get sick of protests then they'll just build a factory in Poland or wherever else with its own environmental issues. I think images of activists storming the factory alienates most people - who don't spend much time on Reddit or Twitter. Campaigning for resources being put into public transport and bike lanes etc makes a lot of sense. Infrastructure does eventually change habits. I lived in Denmark for a while. A lot of people bike there becaues the bike paths are exceptionally good. In Autoland Deutschland, anything that disrupts the car industry and its profits and jobs is seen as a menace.
i love how "why would anyone protest tesla" is immediately followed by "Brandenburg is drying up". buddy. come on.
And since environmentalists don’t want me to buy an EV. I’ll go for a V12 Ford truck 💪
Brilliant!